Category talk:Villains
Validity I'm not sure that I like the idea of classifying people as heroes and villains. There is no defining quality of a "hero". The best example of this is in the case of Frank Castle. While he believes that he is justified in his actions, he doesn't exactly give his victims a fair trial. Yet under current convention, he is classified as a hero. Because of this, I would like to nominate this category, the heroes category and the two teenage categories for deletion. --3LMN 06:16, August 24, 2011 (UTC) I see what you are saying. Another great example is the Brotherhood. They are not evil but just believe in different things like Professor X. If you were a mutant, you could say the X-Men are evil for betraying mutants and going on the humans side. New Captain 07:42, August 24, 2011 (UTC) The reason for the categories is so people know which characters are the "good" guys in the films. "Good" being the person we are meant to be rooting for. It is a completely justified category. I never saw a point in the teen heroes and villains categories though. Villains are then the ones giving who has been deemed the hero of the film trouble. Remove the heroes and villains categories and you have the likes of Abomination in the same category as the Fantastic Four. So what I'm saying is, unless you have alternate category names to define this separation between the "good" and the "bad", I think this is an unneccessary action to take place. -Doomlurker 08:02, August 24, 2011 (UTC) :What I'm saying is although they may not be "good" or "bad", in their respective films they are the heroes and/or villains, its not to do with their actions. Its how they are defined in the films. -Doomlurker 08:08, August 24, 2011 (UTC) ::For example, if you were to ask someone who is the villain in X-Men (2000) they would say its Magneto and the Brotherhood. Likewise with Punisher: Warzone, you ask someone who the hero is they are going to say Frank Castle even if he isn't technically the traditional hero figure. The category is there to show who is portrayed as the hero or villain in the film. - Doomlurker 08:27, August 24, 2011 (UTC) :::If anything The Punisher should be categorised under Anti-Heroes rather than deleting the categories as a whole because he doesn't fit. - Doomlurker ::::I understand your point but I still don't think it is our place to tell people who to "root for", despite the obvious inclination for Marvel to focus on one side of a story. There are also characters who have their "side" change during a franchise. Examples of this include Harry Osborn, Raven, the Silver Surfer and even "the merchant of death". Personally, I don't have a problem with having the Abomination and the Fantastic Four in the same category if they share common qualities. I just think we should try to keep our perspective as neutral and as in-universe as possible. --3LMN 06:25, August 25, 2011 (UTC) And in-universe these characters are seen as heroes or villains. This wiki is about the movies so if they are portrayed as the hero in the movie they should be categorised as such. Likewise with the villains. As for changing sides I don't see a problem with them being under both categories if they have been portrayed as both. There really is no need to delete the entire categories. I don't see why we need to remain neutral when it is obvious in the films who is meant to be the villain. Don't claim "it would be more professional" because it wouldn't. I think it would be less professional for us to dismiss how the Studios have chosen to categorise/portray these characters. Which is as heroes and villains. - Doomlurker 08:57, August 25, 2011 (UTC) :Not all heroes/villains are seen as such in the film universes. The Daily Bugle always portrays Spider-Man as a villain. It's obvious in the films who is meant to be the villain because the studio or the director portrays them as such. Retaining a neutral point of view means that we do not have to side with the studio. :Personally, what I always found fascinating about Marvel films, opposed to other superhero media is that their characters aren't portrayed as heroes, they are portrayed as people. Not everyone they meet respects and admires them. Some even openly hate them. To me, that's what the Spider-Man trilogy was about: an incredibly unique young man trying his best to be a good person. The director wasn't saying "Don't you wish you were him?", he was saying "Deep down, he's just like you". I don't really see it as a portrayal of heroism. Real people make mistakes and I don't believe anyone is truly evil. In my opinion, showing someone to be completely evil is bad storytelling, but something I think Marvel has done its best to avoid in film. --3LMN 07:19, August 26, 2011 (UTC) They are just portrayed as villians by what they do. Magneto tries to kill humans but the X-Men have tried to stop it. Same with the Spider-Man films, they attack the civillians (eg: Mary Jane, Aunt May) and make an evil plot. If they weren't bad then they will not even do this but they have chosen to do it. Professor X wants peace but Magneto does not care and wants to kill the humans making him a villain. If Magneto was good then he would try but because he had a bad childhood, he wants vengence on humans for doing that. We know what a villian is and it's the 'bad guy' in the film. The hero is the one who saves the day and makes peace for everyone. Villains try to kill while heroes try to save them. Punisher is a hero because he was protecting a nice family but was going to kill the evil. New Captain 07:47, August 26, 2011 (UTC) Exactly New Captain. Which is why I think it is unnecessary to remove the categories because it groups together those that try to protect humanity/civilians and those who try to destroy/harm them. 3LMN, the studios make the films so why should we take a neutral view of the characters when they are clearly meant to be portrayed in a certain way. It sounds to me like you are suggesting is that heroism is defined by people wanting to be like the hero when it is actually the actions they take and decisions they make; which New Captain described almost perfectly in his comment above mine. - Doomlurker 08:10, August 26, 2011 (UTC) :I was not arguing that heroism is defined by people wanting to be like the hero. I was disagreeing with your point that "in-universe these characters are seen as heroes or villains". I still don't agree that the characters are "meant to be portrayed" in a certain way. We only see one side of the story. If this were a wiki for World War II Axis propoganda films, would we classify the Nazis as heroes? I know that's a little extreme but you see my point. It's about neutrality. Different people have different people as heroes. The same action, seen from . If the real world worked the way you described, New Captain, it would be a much simpler place. And I know that you were talking about films but if we are going for an in-universe perspective, we shouldn't assume that the film universes have such black-and-white views. :So, if the reason is because they are portrayed as such in the filmmakers, I would argue that the filmmakers try to keep a balenced perspective (with obvious in order to make a good film). :If the reason is because they are seen as such by the in-universe society, I would argue that this is often not the case.--3LMN 00:35, August 27, 2011 (UTC) : :What the writers wanted is a back story for the characters to discribe why they became evil. That is why you are thinking that they are neutrel but they are not. As I said that the villain is the person who the hero(s) face and is the 'bad guy'. New Captain 01:57, August 27, 2011 (UTC) ::That's not what we're debating. We're debating whether the role of a character in a franchise is a valid reason for category. This category is not for "evil" people. Besides, people do not "become evil". Saying Magneto is evil is like saying Malcolm X is evil. It all depends on your point of view. --3LMN 02:27, August 27, 2011 (UTC) The point is they ARE portrayed as heroes and villains. These categories group like minded people. Those who are shown to the audience as heroes, who save/protect and those who don't or oppose the hero - the villains. These films are comic book movies about comic book heroes. Wikis are encyclopaedia from a spectator's point of view not a character's/in-universe point of view. There is no point in deleting these categories when they are relevant to both the genre and the films. - Doomlurker 09:18, August 27, 2011 (UTC) Exactly! If we look at every characters point of view then it will just be messy. Looking at what we are watching from the movie then will be more clearer. This is based on a comicbook and they are known as villains. The writers make a back story for them to seem real. New Captain 09:29, August 27, 2011 (UTC) I need to add some villains on the villains page that is on top of subcategories. I wanted to edit the page with classic editor, but it's not there. Can somebody tell Doomlurker to unlock it so I can add Ajax, Dormammu, Apocalypse and everyone else? I really need his help in this wikia. 08:11 August 13, 2018 JohnnySparrow17 (talk) (UTC)